Today's Football 2023-24

[777Kidnappings]

To suggest that someone with his experience doesn’t understand what football rivalry is absurd. Before we even consider Glasgow, we’re talking about someone who captained and managed a successful club in the final days of the toxic NSL, where teams were founded upon strong ethnic lines by migrants fleeing war-torn and depression-era Europe; teams of ethnic Croatians, Serbians, Greeks, Italians, Hungarians, Polish, Maltese, etc who rarely saw eye to eye. Ange played and managed when the Balkans were on fire in the 90s. Lets just say it made for spicy contests that landed on the front pages as much as the back pages. Rivalries, lol.

Fast forward to 2023: “The league is too big for him,... he's too old,... never managed at elite level,... sacked by Christmas”

He's walked it so far. 

Progressive football, good to excellent first batch of signings, completely remodelled the style of play, won the first 3 manager of the month awards, has a group of players that despite their limitations as a squad are hungry, whilst losing the best striker the league has seen in years. All in less than 12 months.

Now for sure he’s got to bring the rest of their club on a journey with him, as well as losing that Spursy cultural tag. It’ll take time, but he’s got as much chance as anybody and has arguably more desire than his predecessors. The fact that we're even talking about him proves that he's doing a decent job, again, predicted by few. 

Their recent losses are largely due to the fact they’ve played 5 of the top 7 clubs in their last 6 games. He’s just voiced an uncomfortable truth at an uncomfortable time, and Spurs need a little truth bomb to allow for future growth.

Walked it so far? They have 1 clean sheet in almost 20 games and have less points than us since November. He'll not see out next season without something changing

[Shogun]

Thought this was a good comment on a Spurs forum about it all

This "fan-mentality" discourse since Tuesday has really annoyed me. Fans are not a homogenous group and don't have a "mentality" or "culture". Mentality has really become this buzz word in modern football discussion, which is completely meaningless.

Look at it this way, do Chelsea fans have a "winning mentality"? Do Man City fans? Or, did a foreign billionaire come in and spend billions of pounds investing in the best players, managers, infrastructure, facilities and turn them into winning machines? Do those fanbases now have a winning culture because their teams turned into the best in the land before their eyes?

Now do organisations (i.e. football clubs) have a culture? Of course they do, and maybe Spurs need to change their culture in order to succeed. But whether it's a jokey comment from a staff member about playing the under 18s, or some fans chanting about Arsenal when their own team is losing a game, these are not reasons why Spurs have not won a trophy in 16 years. At the end of the day, all fans want the best for their team, all fans want to win. But it's just not that simple is it? Winning is restricted to the privileged few, that should be particularly obvious at a time when Man City are about to win 4 league titles in a row and 6 of the last 7. It doesn't mean bridging that gap is impossible but it's incredibly difficult and requires a lot more than "mentality".

Fans are entitled to support their team however they want, and wanting your arch rivals to fail is an integral part of the game. I'm more than happy to admit that I wanted Arsenal to lose out on the title, even if that meant us missing CL football next season (a position that I've held for weeks). It's an odd position to be put in as a fan, but does it mean that I want Arsenal to fail more than I want Spurs to succeed? Or that I care more about Arsenal than I do about my own club? Absolutely not!! But fans will take their kicks where they can get them.

[Audrey Horne]

Pretty much sums it up perfectly!!

[StirlingBlue]

Postecoglu is just Brendan Rogers with a different accent, Spurs will be mid table next season IMO

[biziclop]

Should be independent medics that assess these things, it's a joke he continued playing.

With a fractured eye socket apparently.

[Cereal Killer]

Postecoglu is just Brendan Rogers with a different accent, Spurs will be mid table next season IMO

You’ll get a bite with that!

[Shogun]

Some start from Leeds

[Cozzie]

Just hope whoever wins out of Saints/West Brom do Leeds.

Be a little miffed if they come back up.

[Cods]

It’s just opinions man.

No need to take it to heart.

I think he’s getting some very deserved criticism for some of the things he’s said and the way he’s acted recently.

Appreciate that Ram. Maybe the way I write comes across more direct or something, I dunno. Mine are obviously just opinions too, I do like to challenge what I see as poorly reasoned yet generally accepted narratives, hopefully for the good of the discussion. Maybe too many words...

On Postecoglu, I find it interesting that Pep doesn't seem to provoke much ire when he regularly criticises his own home fans. Maybe he's earnt a little more credit in the bank that he can afford to spend some. He hasn't solved it, yet has some recognition that things have improved if only slightly.

To me it seems that Postecoglu is trying to do and say similar things little by little that will maybe provoke a better reaction from his fans, and maybe some self-reflection. Shape the club in his image, winning mentality and ignoring all else. Kind of like kopites not really giving too much of a toss these days about our rivalry (except when 'lowly' Everton beat them), seeing much more of one in a ManU, or now a City rivalry, than ours. Kind of managing the mentality to reposition his club.

He hasn't been given the job because he's a reactionary yob that can't hack the pressure, I think he very much understands what is needed to change that club, yet he's seemingly taken at face value mostly by the media that just don't seem to get him, evidenced by their lines of questioning. They haven't been following him for 30 odd years though, so to them he's still a novelty. They've got to get their sound bite too I guess.

[Audrey Horne]

Totally different. Pep criticises city fans for being shit/quiet/apathetic

That's totally different from not being arsed if you lose a game so your mega rivals don't win the league!!

[Cods]

I wouldn't have said Postecoglou's "walked it", results since the turn of the year have been pretty poor, their fast start to the season has carried them through the rest of it. They've won 7 games in the league in 2024, Palace, Brentford, Brighton, Burnley, Luton, Villa and Forest, all at home bar Villa. They've taken some big hits as well and plenty people predicted he would due to being so inflexible. I admire managers that have a certain style but sometimes they need to adapt and change things depending on who you are playing or how a game has going and he's proven he won't, it's cost them heavily in the league just like it cost Celtic heavily in Europe.

Certainly agree regarding having an element of adaptability to playing style, eventually. My thoughts would be that as he's trying to shift from a Conte style very defensive team to an all out attacking team that he's really got to have the time to finish laying down the bedrock of his methods before going back and changing some of them. This season isn't the one he's going to get marked on. In exactly the same way Pep and Arteta got lambasted for and then ultimately proved the doubters wrong. Similar to Dyche and his so called stubbornness, that he ended up getting right. If he does change tact he'll be seen as the tinkerer, weak and without focus, or an indecisive like Moyes was viewed. Cuts both ways.

I thin it's a short term view to be focussing on small changes instead of getting the overall blueprint pinned down. They're following a similar path as Arsenal and City, which is concerning for us if we've got medium term ambitions of competing with them. They've less funds than those two (but improving) so he'll have to do particularly well to even compete with them.

Not sure many would have predicted his Celtic team could go toe to toe with Real Madrid for 60mins before ultimately faltering. But that gave them the confidence to know that they can compete with anyone, even the best. Plucky little Celtic. He did the same for Australia, let them experience the belief that they could compete, and then built on that. Totally changed the mindset of Australian football, the also-rans to what might today be called mentality monsters.

The alternative is what we had with Lampard, no belief established, and a squad deteriorating in their mindset, culture, togetherness, as well as performance on the pitch.

My point was that he has "walked it", relative to what was the widely held view at the time of his appointment, "sacked by Christmas" "the jobs' too big for him" etc. I think he's coped fine and has done a bit better than I expected, but then I'm not overly suprised either.

[Cods]

Totally different. Pep criticises city fans for being shit/quiet/apathetic

That's totally different from not being arsed if you lose a game so your mega rivals don't win the league!!

And Spurs fans are perceived to be relatively shit/quiet/pathetic. Not all of them.

Look, I understand the rivalry. But at what expense is the question. The whole concept that everyone can be critised down to the finest detail, except a section of the fanbase, is such a strange phenomenon. There should be no sacred cows in football. Should they prefer a straight talking manager like Postecoglu, or one that's somewhat delusional like Ten Hag?

From our point of view, Liverpool are close to winning things regularly whilst we're miles off, I can see why it might make sense. It's the only thing we can cling onto at the moment, Liverpool not winning. I think Spurs actually have a much better chance of competing with their rivals, in time, when they have a squad that matches the tactics...and a fanbase aware of what it takes for success.

They have a rivalry sure, but to be happy if they lose at some cost to themselves is counter-productive and says a lot. Arsenal didn't lose a title chance due their Title rival's result at their geographic rivals, Spurs, they lost it against Villa (twice), Fulham, West Ham, Newcastle etc.

My point is, as I'm sure is pretty clear, is that he's looking for them to be better, every facet of the club. I see no issues with him criticising a section of the fans, it's the only way it will ultimately work for them. Valuing Schadenfreude over own achievements is a bit pathetic and probably needs calling out especially if it is hindering your own chances of success.

It's probably a cultural difference, but that doesn't make it wrong either. It seems that some of their fans are more stubborn than Postecoglu is perceived to be if they can't see the bigger picture. Granted you'll always get sections of the fan base being a bit simple and childish.

What should they want to trade for their own success? If it were you/me, I'd assume 'everything'.

No one really counts the titles Arsenal didn't win, Spurs fans can be happy they didn't which is fine. Banter et al. But deep down they all know the Spurs trophy cabinet is where the real rivaly hurts most.

[Cereal Killer]

It’s ok, he’s your uncle or something

He’s still just shown himself to be a shit Martinez-type manager stubbornly stuck to one philosophy/tactic so far and with no experience of deep seated rivalries in a top league

Maybe he’ll develop next season, maybe he’ll plough on down the same route and get sacked, that’s just football

[Cods]

It’s ok, he’s your uncle or something

He’s still just shown himself to be a shit Martinez-type manager stubbornly stuck to one philosophy/tactic so far and with no experience of deep seated rivalries in a top league

Maybe he’ll develop next season, maybe he’ll plough on down the same route and get sacked, that’s just football

Uncle Ange,... godfather more like.

I think he'll do ok. Other managers have shown that over time they've more than one string to their bow. It's not all revealed up front.

[Audrey Horne]

I think what you're saying is crazy tbh but it really doesn't matter