Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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What is the lowest amount of points you would feel content with receiving back from the appeal?

0
3
7%
1-3
2
4%
4-6
26
57%
7-9
5
11%
10
10
22%
 
Total votes: 46

AjaxAndy
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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Gash wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:36 pm Didn't we try and claim we had deals for Sigurdsson and Tosun lined up but they fell through for various reasons, suspended by the club being one of them obviousl? Even if we did I wonder how much we have got for Sigurdsson with big wages and not long left on his contract and how we even prove it, other than getting the buying club to back it up. Not sure about Tosun either, did his ACL on loan to Palace in March 2020 so that ruled him out for the best part of a year and he'd only have a year two left on his contract by the time he recovered. Maybe we'd have got enough for both to cover the £20m deficit?
Sig was rumoured to be off to Saudi at the time so I'd imagine at least the £19.5m we were judged to be over.
Shogun
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I doubt we'd have sold Sigurdsson either way.

I can't remember whether the PL told us not to play Sigurdsson or if it was our decision. If it was the PL then I'm not sure how the IC can look at that case and deem there to be no mitigating circumstances and essentially come to the conclusion that he was a worthless asset.

If we decided not to play him then it makes more sense they dismissed it.
Gash
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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Shogun wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:23 pm I doubt we'd have sold Sigurdsson either way.

I can't remember whether the PL told us not to play Sigurdsson or if it was our decision. If it was the PL then I'm not sure how the IC can look at that case and deem there to be no mitigating circumstances and essentially come to the conclusion that he was a worthless asset.

If we decided not to play him then it makes more sense they dismissed it.
It was the club that suspended him, I think being a club matter it's internal so nothing to do with the PL. You only need to look at other clubs where there's been various allegations and the player has kept playing. Maybe us doing the right thing has shot us in the foot, I still think it would be questionable that anyone was properly after him though. You'd assume we'd need to have been in negotiations with a club and have some evidence of that for it to be considered rather than just a general enquiry about him.
AjaxAndy
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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Shogun wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:23 pm I doubt we'd have sold Sigurdsson either way.

I can't remember whether the PL told us not to play Sigurdsson or if it was our decision. If it was the PL then I'm not sure how the IC can look at that case and deem there to be no mitigating circumstances and essentially come to the conclusion that he was a worthless asset.

If we decided not to play him then it makes more sense they dismissed it.
I honestly have no idea how close the move was to happening, but there was some serious talk of a Saudi move just before the stories broke. Don't think they were just idle rumours, although whether he'd have wanted to go, what the fee was etc is very much an unknown.
Gary1878
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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The point is that we don't know if the penalty is harsh or not, because there is no anchor point or guidance from the Premier League from which we can ascertain the severity of the punishment.

That's where the gripe is, not the fact if we are guilty or not.

What the PL are also saying is that they can effectively do whatever they want. Therefore, they won't necessarily need to use Everton as a precedent for future charges and breaches of financial regulation. If they did, then all punishments will be extremely severe and damaging to the team being charged.

Because of the above, you could have a situation where a team breaks the financial rules by a much larger amount, but receives a much lighter penalty.

The fact is, as fans, we deserve to know why we are being charged the amount of points we are. We live in a democracy built on equality and transparency, and in our case, we are being denied both of those basic principles.
Paddockoldie
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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Gary1878 wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:46 pm The point is that we don't know if the penalty is harsh or not, because there is no anchor point or guidance from the Premier League from which we can ascertain the severity of the punishment.

That's where the gripe is, not the fact if we are guilty or not.

What the PL are also saying is that they can effectively do whatever they want. Therefore, they won't necessarily need to use Everton as a precedent for future charges and breaches of financial regulation. If they did, then all punishments will be extremely severe and damaging to the team being charged.

Because of the above, you could have a situation where a team breaks the financial rules by a much larger amount, but receives a much lighter penalty.

The fact is, as fans, we deserve to know why we are being charged the amount of points we are. We live in a democracy built on equality and transparency, and in our case, we are being denied both of those basic principles.

Masters is saying because it's a private company they don't have to make minutes public... probably same with how they decided on our punishment
AjaxAndy
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If you have nothing to hide then you release everything to show your justifications and put an end to speculation about your bias or incompetence.

The fact he's already said they won't be releasing things 'because they don't have to' speaks volumes for their process.
eyesalwaysblue
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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AjaxAndy wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:13 pm Sig was rumoured to be off to Saudi at the time so I'd imagine at least the £19.5m we were judged to be over.
Didn't try and verify it further but i read we tried to claim we'd get 30m for Sigg but the PL knocked it to 10m, probably the 10 was nearer his value when we bought him but mad to think if we'd have left him where he was as we should have done things would have been brighter, him along with Keane absolute bonkers signings and so obvious before the deeds were done.
4evablu
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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Gash wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:38 pm Do you honestly believe that, we hired someone with a better understanding of it than every other club and everyone else under estimated their Covid losses? You're right, you are niave. :)
Doesn't that appear to be the fact though ? Bearing in mind (repeating mine and most peoples comments) re Bramley Moore. Most other clubs didn't have a Bramley Moore project on the go.
WBFBTPL
4evablu
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Gash wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 2:48 pm We have been dodgy, every club probably is in some respects but as I said we weren't even subtle about it at times. Did you read the link? An accountancy firm didn't want to put their name to our accounts raising questions over our finances and ownership, that answers your point about accountants and auditors signing off our books. And BDO had only been doing them for two years, the company that took over from them then raised questions over our ability to remain solvent if we were relegated.

Everyone knows that Moshiri is only Usmanov's front man and the face of the business but it was Usmanov pulling the strings and making the decisions, didn't he even sit in a couple of managers interviews and agreed bonuses with Ancelotti? That's why so many journalists have starting sniffing around and asking questions, there's a lot of shady things being going on at the club. You seem of the opinion that we've done nothing wrong when even the club admitted that they have and there will have been far more that we've not been caught for.

The penalty is very harsh, a second would be even worse but we can't take the moral high ground and try blame everyone else or make out that we've done nothing wrong.
There's 4 points i've highlighted here:
1) The accountancy firm - 1 didn't... but 1 did... also including the PL financial teams.
2) The Insolvency point - Of course relegation would impact on the club and be raised by and acountant..our own accountants must have raised it numerous times i would of thought...it would impact any club the size of everton particularly with a building project the size of the one we're undertaking...Sorry moot point for me.
3) The Usmanov point - All this Oligarch stuff only came to light because of the war in Ukraine...I'm not defending the guy or any of them...but don't forget he/they passed the due PL's/FA's fiduciary fitness process for Arsenal and Usmanov again for Everton...The war happens and the sanctions begin as they also did for Abramavich and every other Russian with an involvement in sport.
4) Done nothing wrong - I'm not of an opinion we've done nothing wrong at all.....we've been poorly owned and managed and these are the consequences of that....everton admitted being over the threshold...so no moral high ground taken there!...the mitigating circumstances that caused the breach is what was in question at the first hearing.....no one is "trying to blame everyone else"...but offering objective evidence and reasons that are subjective to further scrutiny because of the harsh penalties inflicted on the club.

Quick question - If we'd been docked say 3-5 points do you (and anyone else) think we (EFC) would be going through all this now or just taken the punishment and moved on ?
WBFBTPL
Gash
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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4evablu wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:11 am Doesn't that appear to be the fact though ? Bearing in mind (repeating mine and most peoples comments) re Bramley Moore. Most other clubs didn't have a Bramley Moore project on the go.
I guess you may be willing to give he club the benefit of the doubt that we've got this right an no one else has but I don't think many people would given the general incompetence we've shown at most things. Regarding stadium costs, as far as I know stadium and infrastructure are not part of FFP, you can spend as much on them as you want but even if they were part of it for the FFP period we've been punished for I'd imagine at that point our stadium costs were pretty low, obviously still into the millions but we hadn't even started work on the stadium for a lot of the period.
Goaljira
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4evablu wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:32 am 3) The Usmanov point - All this Oligarch stuff only came to light because of the war in Ukraine...I'm not defending the guy or any of them...but don't forget he/they passed the due PL's/FA's fiduciary fitness process for Arsenal and Usmanov again for Everton...The war happens and the sanctions begin as they also did for Abramavich and every other Russian with an involvement in sport.
He never owned Arsenal, only a minority share. He never officially owned or had a stake in us. So on both counts Alisher Usmanov wasn't required to be passed as fit and proper by the PL. Abramovic was Chelsea's owner, and a sale was forced on him as him supporting Chelsea with his own funding would have contravened the UK Government imposed sanctions on him. Usmanov via his companies was on paper nothing more than a very very generous sponsor to us. So us losing a sponsor or two shouldn't really be a problem if they were fair market value as you just replace them with another bidder. The fact no other party has entered into discussions about Finch Farm, Bramley Moore or anything just highlights how problematic those deals were.
Gash
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Re: Financial Fairplay Investigation - Charged again

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4evablu wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:32 am There's 4 points i've highlighted here:
1) The accountancy firm - 1 didn't... but 1 did... also including the PL financial teams.
2) The Insolvency point - Of course relegation would impact on the club and be raised by and acountant..our own accountants must have raised it numerous times i would of thought...it would impact any club the size of everton particularly with a building project the size of the one we're undertaking...Sorry moot point for me.
3) The Usmanov point - All this Oligarch stuff only came to light because of the war in Ukraine...I'm not defending the guy or any of them...but don't forget he/they passed the due PL's/FA's fiduciary fitness process for Arsenal and Usmanov again for Everton...The war happens and the sanctions begin as they also did for Abramavich and every other Russian with an involvement in sport.
4) Done nothing wrong - I'm not of an opinion we've done nothing wrong at all.....we've been poorly owned and managed and these are the consequences of that....everton admitted being over the threshold...so no moral high ground taken there!...the mitigating circumstances that caused the breach is what was in question at the first hearing.....no one is "trying to blame everyone else"...but offering objective evidence and reasons that are subjective to further scrutiny because of the harsh penalties inflicted on the club.

Quick question - If we'd been docked say 3-5 points do you (and anyone else) think we (EFC) would be going through all this now or just taken the punishment and moved on ?
Plenty clubs build stadiums, plenty get relegated, fair enough not many do both at the same time but it's also rare for a club's accountants to say this.
Upon the release of Everton’s latest accounts, Crowe UK, painted a picture of uncertainty surrounding the financial future of the Toffees. A statement from the firm noted that if Everton – currently outside the Premier League relegation zone only on goal-difference – should be consigned to Championship football next season, it will require “additional financial support” from its majority shareholder – who in turn is reliant on support of its own majority shareholder.

Crowe added, “[The majority shareholders] have indicated they are supportive of the group, but the support is not legally or contractually binding. These matters indicate that a material uncertainty exists that may cast significant doubt on the group’s ability to continue as a going concern.”
It's worth noting that Moshiri has now effectively withdrawn that funding.

Usmanov was a shareholder at Arsenal, he had no place on the board at Arsenal so wasn't subject to any PL checks. He wasn't subject to any checks at Everton either as on paper he had no official position at the club, he was sanctioned as was USM and Megafon so that put a stop to all the sponsorship he was pumping into the club but he didn't need to pass any fit and proper checks. I can't really add much more to what you're saying, you're very blinkered and naive to a lot of things going on at the club but you've obviously not been aware of a lot of things either, as the above about Usmanov proves. Dig around a bit more on him, suspicious £30m naming rights for BMD, already banned from the UK in Sept 2021, Moshiri on the board of USM etc, no wonder the club didn't want his name on anything official. The war did fuck things with him and us, but again, I'm not 100% but I think the sanctions only came into effect at the end of the period we've been penalised for as the war only started 2 years ago and the sanctions came in around March 2022?

If we'd been docked 3-5 points I certainly wouldn't have any complaints, I've said before I don't think we want anyone looking too closely at our books and dealings over the last few years, take the hit and move on. As fans it's shite because we get caught up in it all and we're the innocent ones but I'm not going to sit and pretend the club (not the fans) haven't brought a lot of this on themselves and we probably did deserve some sort of punishment but what we got was excessive.
Sirblue57
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Can't get this in Spain...
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